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stunt_muppet has reminded me that I've been meaning to post about this (and, uh, yes, I'm spacing out my entries today so they're not quite back-to-back).
If you're a Doctor Who fan, take a look at this. No, seriously. Go take a look. It's okay; I'll wait.
Discuss!
Which of them would you most like to have seen? Which do you think would have changed the way Who went? Which will you subsequently attempt to immortalize in fanfiction form? :D
Okay, so... so "The Prison in Space". I think I'd just... just have to see that one. The description renders me speechless. Jamie in drag!
"The Song of the Space Whale" sounds downright interesting, in an utterly bizarre sort of way.
And who wouldn't like to see a Stephen Fry script for the Tenth Doctor?!
No, but the one that would have changed everything would be "The Final Game". I'm such a huge fan of Delgado's Master and his incredibly messed up best-enemies relationship with the Third Doctor - it would have been absolutely incredibly excellent, I'm sure. Brilliant.
That would have changed everything, though - or would it? You could probably retcon it away, saying that the Master's death was, y'know, about the same as every other time he's "died". Crispy!Master and Simm!Master and Ainley!Master and, oh fiddle, even Roberts!Master could still exist in the AU created here.
What I'm driving at is - would there be any interest in a fic that sticks to this plot? It'd be a long-term project, but I'd love to work on it at some point in the future (well after Big Bang, of course, and at least one of my other two epic!fics would have to have wrapped up by then). Hm. Food for thought.
Anyway, yes. What do you guys think?
stunt_muppet has reminded me that I've been meaning to post about this (and, uh, yes, I'm spacing out my entries today so they're not quite back-to-back).If you're a Doctor Who fan, take a look at this. No, seriously. Go take a look. It's okay; I'll wait.
Discuss!
Which of them would you most like to have seen? Which do you think would have changed the way Who went? Which will you subsequently attempt to immortalize in fanfiction form? :D
Okay, so... so "The Prison in Space". I think I'd just... just have to see that one. The description renders me speechless. Jamie in drag!
"The Song of the Space Whale" sounds downright interesting, in an utterly bizarre sort of way.
And who wouldn't like to see a Stephen Fry script for the Tenth Doctor?!
No, but the one that would have changed everything would be "The Final Game". I'm such a huge fan of Delgado's Master and his incredibly messed up best-enemies relationship with the Third Doctor - it would have been absolutely incredibly excellent, I'm sure. Brilliant.
That would have changed everything, though - or would it? You could probably retcon it away, saying that the Master's death was, y'know, about the same as every other time he's "died". Crispy!Master and Simm!Master and Ainley!Master and, oh fiddle, even Roberts!Master could still exist in the AU created here.
What I'm driving at is - would there be any interest in a fic that sticks to this plot? It'd be a long-term project, but I'd love to work on it at some point in the future (well after Big Bang, of course, and at least one of my other two epic!fics would have to have wrapped up by then). Hm. Food for thought.
Anyway, yes. What do you guys think?
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Date: 2008-01-22 01:58 am (UTC)O_O
Date: 2008-01-22 02:25 am (UTC)I vote "fanficcer's dream" and most definitely not epic tragedy for most of these (especially most of Six's, with the exception of the one from the S&S guy). But The Dark Dimension I could definitely have enjoyed seeing in Seven's era… Prison in Space I'm torn about: it would have either been brilliant or awful, and the idea of a really horrid stain on Two's era, well. :(
I agree: Final Game would have been the one to change everything. Not because of the Master's death; more for the implications they had planned there for the Doctor's nature. I'm glad it didn't get made, though, because it would have oversimplified both characters far too much, by stripping them each down to something less than a full personality. (The id dying for the ego at the end would have been an interesting twist, but not interesting enough to inflate the whole dynamic back to 3-D.) Never mind about Who's future after that; it wouldn't have made any sense with Who's past.
Once again, though: I'd read the fanfic. From the right author, at least. ;) In a good fanfic, I don't think the idea would have to flatten both characters, since there's so much leeway for creating psychic geographies and generally doing whatever the hell it takes to make the thing fly.
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Date: 2008-01-22 05:18 am (UTC)The show would obviously be completely different if "The Giants" had been made, and "The Final Game" would have also sent things in a very different direction for the exact reasons that you mention. I also can't quite wrap my head around Gallifrey going boom in the '80s.
The description of "The Prison in Space" completely breaks my brain.
What I wouldn't give for a completely filmed version of "Shada". I've seen the animated version, but it just ain't the same without Tom Baker.
Woe for the axing of the one with the Autons and the Rani and the P.J. Hammond script.
...Wow, I can really ramble when I get going.
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Date: 2008-01-22 05:23 am (UTC)And maybe, someday when my time is more my own, write some myself. ^^no subject
Date: 2008-01-22 06:01 am (UTC)(OMG, they all sound so cool. And the Prison In Space sends a jolt of glee down my spine.)
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Date: 2008-01-22 07:01 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-22 07:03 am (UTC)I don't know if I would have preferred any of them made. Unmade serials lend a certain kind of...background mythology into this whole thing. (Also, that would mean more to catch up on.) And elements of them made their way into other media and stuff. (I knew "Kritkritmen" sounded familiar!)
Also, they lead to epic fanon. *nods*
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Date: 2008-01-22 05:13 pm (UTC)Also, Shrine? So needs to be an Ace, Hex, and Seven audio. They already pulled one unmade serial - Night Thoughts (which is not listed in the article, but the OG says it's an unmade serial) - why not another?
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Date: 2008-01-23 04:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-01-23 05:48 pm (UTC)Prison in Space sounds like it could have been either cracktastic or painful. On the one hand, Jaime in drag! On the other...no. No smacking of Zoe's shiny arse. Not allowed. The Imps and Farewell Great Macedon sound like they would have been interesting, though.
Now, The Final Game...it's a fascinating idea, I grant you, and there is a way you could make it work with the existence of the other Masters. If the Master is the id of this meta-Doctor being, then there isn't really a way he could be permanently destroyed, is there? Suppressed, maybe, but not destroyed. So the Master (id) would keep resurfacing based on corresponding events and actions by the Doctor (ego) - wherever the id was denied or suppressed, the Master would return to try to accomplish the ends of the id.
But, for the most part, I have to agree with
(Although for some reason I'm getting visions of what Genesis of the Daleks would be like if this id-ego relationship prevailed - would the Master then try to destroy the Daleks, since it was the action of conscience and a sense of right (the ego considering the needs of the superego) that stopped the Doctor from doing so?)
(Also, Valeyard = Superego? It'd make a bit more sense than all the other explanations we've got for his existence.)
I think I can live without the extra serials for Five, though another Mara story opens up quite a few ficcing options. Paradise Five sounds like it could have been quite fun - well, really, just the idea of Six going undercover makes me giggle. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around Gallifrey being destroyed during Six's tenure - I can't even imagine what that would have done to him.
Ice Time would have at least given us a TV-canon explanation for what happened to Ace, rather than the four different explanations that book canon provides. And the idea of Seven ending his term by going crazy...That could have taken the whole rest of the series in a much different, much darker direction. I kinda like it. :D
...oh my, this went on for a while. Um, conclusion: I vote "fanficcers dream". I'd read 'em
and possibly write 'em, anyway.Re: O_O
Date: 2008-01-28 11:13 pm (UTC)It doesn't really bear thinking, does it? Just imagine how messed-up he'd be because of it all - and think of how Seven would wind up. My brain, it does hurt. In a good way.
I'm glad it didn't get made, though, because it would have oversimplified both characters far too much, by stripping them each down to something less than a full personality.
Yes, and that part of it, especially the way it's written in the Wiki article, makes so little sense that it's pretty apparent it never really got planned in any great depth - I'm just interested in the possibility of what they might've accomplished, because Three's era had some pretty smart/crazy ideas from time to time, and the cracktasticness might've just managed to mess around with those psychic geographies you mentioned. With all of these, I'm getting the impression that we're missing the whole story.
Uh. Wait. That's not exactly a profound thought, is it? ;)
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Date: 2008-01-28 11:16 pm (UTC)Oh, right! One day I'll remember I'm on the watchlist for that one - I couldn't figure out where everyone was coming from! Hee.
I also can't quite wrap my head around Gallifrey going boom in the '80s.
I can't work out whether it would've helped or hindered the show at such a crucial point - would the show have been cancelled early, or would it've run longer? Or would it've made a difference at all?
What I wouldn't give for a completely filmed version of "Shada". I've seen the animated version, but it just ain't the same without Tom Baker.
Have you seen the reconstruction? (All the filmed bits, with linking narration by Tom Baker.) It's no substitute for the whole thing, but it is very enjoyable.
Woe for the axing of the one with the Autons and the Rani and the P.J. Hammond script.
Woe indeed!
...Wow, I can really ramble when I get going.
Hee, me too. But that's good! More to reply to! Um, about a week after you post. Sorry about that - slow getting caught up. ;)
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Date: 2008-01-28 11:17 pm (UTC)Yeesss. Can't... can't quite picture that. Nor do I want to.
what would he be capable of if his planet had been cut out from under him?
Brr. Scary thought.
And maybe, someday when my time is more my own, write some myself. ^^
Ooh! *eagerly anticipates*
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Date: 2008-01-28 11:19 pm (UTC)My dear girl, you are to post this in Green Bubble Wrap NOW!
Eep! I forgot to do this, too, didn't I? *runs off to do so in an immediately sort of way*
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Date: 2008-01-28 11:23 pm (UTC)Hee! That is an excellent point, right there. If these had been made, we'd all be tearing them to shreds - as it is, it's nice to set them up as a kind of idealised standard of nearly-existent awesome. :D
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Date: 2008-01-28 11:25 pm (UTC)Ooh, yes! I like the way you think! I love the fact that the new series works with ideas from the audios, and that the audios work with ideas from the classic series, and so on and so forth. It's neat. Huzzah, audios!
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Date: 2008-01-28 11:31 pm (UTC)Hee, no kidding!
No smacking of Zoe's shiny arse. Not allowed.
This is very, very true. That would've been downright embarrassing - but Jamie in drag! Jamie in drag, I say!
His entire personality, and how he'll act, are defined completely from then on.
Yes, potentially (and actually it'd probably be very likely). But I think it's also possible to toss some misdirection into the mix, imply that, in this case, the id and the ego have fed off each other to create complete but slanted personalities? Nah, that doesn't make much sense, either. :D I think it's a more interesting idea to ponder in the context of the later, established canon. Like with Genesis of the Daleks. That's neat.
Valeyard = Superego
Ooh, now there's food for thought...
I'd read 'em and possibly write 'em, anyway.
Ooh! I heartily endorse any such endeavours. :D
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Date: 2008-01-28 11:35 pm (UTC)Terrifying, because the really frightening thing about Six isn't that he's particularly malicious—he isn't—but that HE'S NOT ALL THERE. He's not just an alien, he's an alien who's out to lunch. Even the Valeyard's most furious accusation wasn't of malice, but of a terrifying sort of carelessness. The most chilling thing about Six's era for me has always been not the very real possibility that Peri died, but that he does not know what happened to Peri.
Just… Brr, as you said. And I've occasionally gotten the same just-not-with-it vibe with Ten, too.
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Date: 2008-01-28 11:39 pm (UTC)YES. That's just... well, it's marvellous fanfiction fodder (I've only actually seen a couple of Six's serials - most of what I know of him is based on the audios at this point, which is something I'm hoping to remedy in the very near future). But also creepy! Chilling, yes.
And I've occasionally gotten the same just-not-with-it vibe with Ten, too.
Yes! So when somebody, somewhere, somewhen, asked me which two Doctors I'd most like to see paired together (er, not like that), I picked Ten and Six. It would just be... fascinating.
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Date: 2008-01-28 11:47 pm (UTC)well, it's marvellous fanfiction fodder
It is, but often depressing. Or maybe that's just because I take such a cracked out approach to it.
most of what I know of him is based on the audios at this point, which is something I'm hoping to remedy in the very near future
The scripts from that era, as I'm sure you already know, are very, very uneven. Even within scripts they're uneven (Revelation of the Daleks sculpture, WTF?), and I've always figured that Colin Baker and Nicola Bryant must've been tapping some mystical power to make these characters appealing despite it all.
Also, I've got me some Six audios now, too! *bounces* Canon Trufax: Six is the best screamer in the entire history of Who. Srsly.
Yes! So when somebody, somewhere, somewhen, asked me which two Doctors I'd most like to see paired together (er, not like that), I picked Ten and Six. It would just be... fascinating.
O_O The Fic. It must be written.
no subject
Date: 2008-01-28 11:52 pm (UTC)Word. Don't get me wrong, when Jamie threatened to spank her in Wheel in Space, I lapped it up, but spanking the fetching young female assistant to "reprogram" her? Does not want.
If the Master is the id of this meta-Doctor being, then there isn't really a way he could be permanently destroyed, is there?
Oooh, there's a point. I bet one could spin a fanfic plot that used the kernel of that idea without something so reductive as the ego/id part, too… something to do with the metaphysics of regeneration, perhaps?
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Date: 2008-01-29 10:10 pm (UTC)"Oh, don't sulk, Jamie. You'll ruin your lipstick."
"*grumble*"
But I think it's also possible to toss some misdirection into the mix, imply that, in this case, the id and the ego have fed off each other to create complete but slanted personalities?
Possible, that. Quite possible. Perhaps now that they're both psysical entities rather than aspects of a single one, they've had to develop more completely? Or...um...how do I put this...well, they were, at one point, solely an id and ego, but once they became seperate beings for whatever reason, they needed the complete but slanted mind you mentioned in order to function, since a living mind can't work with only the id or only the ego.
Oh! Oh! Idea! Perhaps, at the end of Utopia, Ten is unable to lock the TARDIS coordinates for some reason, and as soon as the Master figures out what the Time War was and why it happened, he ditches his paradox-invasion plan and heads straight back to Genesis-era Skaro to do what the Doctor wouldn't. And the Doctor, at the moment, has no way to stop him from doing so, because the Master is using his TARDIS...*frantic scribbling* You know, it would take an awful lot of explaining and such, but I kind of want to do it now. :D
< /tangent again>
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Date: 2008-01-29 10:19 pm (UTC)Hmm...you could probably do something with the Other's 'reincarnation' as the Doctor to that effect, if you were going by book canon. But my familiarity with book canon is sketchy at best, so I'm clearing out of that arena fast.
Even just within TV canon, though, the Doctor's regeneration process does have enough inconsistencies with the rest of the Time Lords to suggest that something's different about it (why can't he choose his new body the way Romana could, for example?). Perhaps the Doctor/Master duality could be explained with those inconsistencies? Hmm.
*puts on thinking face*
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Date: 2008-01-31 06:23 am (UTC)Hah, no worries! I don't think I'm unspoiled for anything in the Whoniverse at the moment. *grins*
I've seen the first half, but had, um. *cough*downloadissues*cough* with the third and fourth episodes. Will get back to it on my epic rewatch, for sure!
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Date: 2008-01-31 06:24 am (UTC)DO EEET! I would very definitely read this. :D
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Date: 2008-02-01 08:11 am (UTC)Yeah... the very variability of that era lent a shattered, manic aspect to his character. I always interpreted his silence on the matter of Peri as a sort of Schroedinger's gambit: if he didn't check, she might still be alive. The Matrix did say she had lived, although I can't remember whether the Doctor was there when it had revealed (and the Master had been tampering with it anyway, so who knows).
OH, AND. *thunderstruck by an idea* What if The Final Game was made, the Master apparently perished, and it was later revealed that the trauma of whatever the ending was had split him off from the Doctor, in the manner of the Valeyard, and with their newfound autonomy each began to gradually acquire traits which might have been absorbed by the other had their connection remained complete? Can't see THAT character arc ending the series.